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  #21  
Old 11-30-2005, 02:30 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

It's all part and parcel of the disconnect. How war is really waged .vs. what they want the public and potential recruits to know.

Honor goes out the door when your decisions to be honorable is likely going to cost your life. Always been that way, always will.

I dont think a person like Westhusing is going to kill himself because he disagrees with how a war is being waged. More likely he was a) dispatched because he was causing problems; or b) killed himself because he discovered everything he'd built his career on was false; or c) something completely different, like his wife left him.





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  #22  
Old 11-30-2005, 11:03 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

I like this guy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...113000173.html

Rumsfeld got served lol

"Obviously, the United States does not have a responsibility when a sovereign country engages in something that they disapprove of." - Rumsfeld

ROFLOLOLOLOLOL


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  #23  
Old 11-30-2005, 11:23 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

"Iraq isn't unique in this, but it is becoming very, very obvious to most of the world: the use of this war has little to do with military objectives, and much to do with pay off."

Payroll not only including oil, but taxpayers money laundered through bloodshed into the stock options of Cheney and Crew.

Dispicable motherfuckers.



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  #24  
Old 11-30-2005, 11:32 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

"Anybody that kills themself is off their rocker."

There are alot of "suicides" in the military that aren't self-inflicted.



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  #25  
Old 11-30-2005, 11:35 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

The other quote was a classic too:

"Iraq knows, of certain knowledge, that they need the support of the international community. And a good way to lose it is to make a practice of something that is inconsistent with the values of the international community."



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  #26  
Old 12-04-2005, 07:11 AM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

In reply to:


haze: We need more people that don't buy into the bullshit in the first place, and can see this shit for what it really is.




This one is bugging me.

I can't see it. The folks that question motivations, look for historical parallels, are mindful of the ethics and political ramifications of global scale military committments and missions are not people you want as field personnel.

The people you want as field personnel are people that have a profound sense of duty, respond well to authority, have concern for both their fellow officers and the population among which they perform their duties. These are not people to formulate strong opinions about the ramifications of military missions, but rather, people who identify themselves with the immediate task at hand.

That doesn't mean they are dumb, or brainwashed, or cowardly drones. That means, rather, that they take the job immediately in front of them seriously. The global ramifications are not their concern; their concern is the broad network of facts on the ground which they must treat soberly and honorably.

I think Colonel Westhusing is precisely the sort of field commander you want. Colonel is exactly the kind of position that sort of man should command - and probably no higher. Leading others by his example of honor and duty is a great benefit to the other people out in the field that have to do a painful, horrendous task and take some solace that there is a meaning to their brutal job.

As long as there are violent militaristic countries on the planet, we'll need cadres of honorable men and women to help offset opportunistic nations, genocidal movements, and expansionistic strongmen.

The problem comes when we, the American people, fail these honorable men and women by blindly allowing our civilian leaders to make the point of these men's lives a dishonorable one. Colonel Westhusing had no outlet for what happens when he is ordered by his country to implement being the dishonorable oppressor.

So while I salute Colonel Westhusing for his service, and the service of the other 2,200 American military dead, the thousands of other military dead, the civilian dead, the dead Iraqi civilians, and, even, the native Iraqi population who seeks merely to determine the course of their own country without foreign intervention, I blame myself, and the rest of my countrymen, for creating these useless graves.

I was truly, personally, devestated when Bush invaded Iraq, and I continue to be so to this day. Part of the blame, albeit smaller since I was outspoken and against the war from the onset, and have remained so throughout it, lies with me in my role as a taxpaying, voting, American citizen.

But the people I do not blame are Baathist insurgents, US military personnel, and the occupied Iraqi civilians, all of whom are largely blameless for the current state of militant unrest in their country.

The fault lies with the United States civilian population and the leadership they placed in power; it lies primarily with the Bush installed civilian leadership who created a misbegotten exercise in hegemonistic oppression to subdue a sovereign nation and install a government of their own choosing.

Even if the original premise of the Iraqi war had been WMD's (and if you'll recall I never believed that was even in the top 5 reasons to invade Iraq - it always rung more as a "selling point" than as an actual ethical motivation), the subsequent botching of the recreation of the Iraqi society has been a horrific exercise in graft and power manipulation. Instead of an Iraq that the Iraqi people want, they're getting an Iraq that the American people want. That will last all of months after we remove the substantial portion of our troops.

We're in Iraq to take territory. It's really that simple. We'll have full-fledged bases in Iraq for the next half a century (or longer), with the ability to subdue any nation in the mideast region quickly and easily should we desire to do so. You can not do that with aircraft carriers. You can not do that from Qatar or Diego Garcia or Prince Sultan. You can do that from Iraq.

So when Bush says he'll bring the troops home after the Iraqi's can take over security concerns themselves, that will be a slowly sliding scale. We'll still have substantial assets in Iraq in January, 2009 when he is no longer president. The real question is where will the American people decide to go in the next decade - will they continue the hegemonistic approach to make the world in the image of countries that the United States wishes, or will they restrain themselves from this ridiculous notion of nation-building?

In reply to:


LEHRER: How would you go about, as president, deciding when it was in the national interest to use U.S. force? Generally.

BUSH: Well, if it's in our vital national interests. And that means whether or not our territory -- our territory is threatened, our people could be harmed, whether or not our alliances -- our defense alliances are threatened, whether or not our friends in the Middle East are threatened. That would be a time to seriously consider the use of force.

Secondly, whether or not the mission was clear, whether or not it was a clear understanding as to what the mission would be.

Thirdly, whether or not we were prepared and trained to win, whether or not our forces were of high morale and high standing and well-equipped.

And finally, whether or not there was an exit strategy.

I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops.

The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation-building. I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders.




Bush is a liar, and he has badly, badly abused the trust of the American people, and the honor, duty and lives of the men and women of the United States Military.




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  #27  
Old 12-05-2005, 06:09 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

In reply to:


I think Colonel Westhusing is precisely the sort of field commander you want.




The dead kind?




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  #28  
Old 12-05-2005, 07:49 PM
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Re: The meaning of Honor

Crassus must know a lot more about this guy then we do.

For all I know, he never field commanded anything. Did the article say he was in charge of ... something?







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